Comments on: Good luck (the rest of us don’t need it) http://www.davidarussell.co.uk/2005/12/01/good-luck-the-rest-of-us-dont-need-it/ Blog about news, politics, computers and the internet by David Russell Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:23:12 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: David Russell http://www.davidarussell.co.uk/2005/12/01/good-luck-the-rest-of-us-dont-need-it/comment-page-1/#comment-190 David Russell Sun, 04 Dec 2005 11:43:58 +0000 http://davidarussell.eu/?p=295#comment-190 Ah... hang on a minute. Sorry, completely misunderstood what Colin was saying (thought you were arguing about the numbers themselves, in fact you were arguing that the numbers [FLOPS in this case] aren't a particularly good way of measuring performance). *shuts up* Ah… hang on a minute. Sorry, completely misunderstood what Colin was saying (thought you were arguing about the numbers themselves, in fact you were arguing that the numbers [FLOPS in this case] aren’t a particularly good way of measuring performance). *shuts up*

]]> By: Gary Fleming http://www.davidarussell.co.uk/2005/12/01/good-luck-the-rest-of-us-dont-need-it/comment-page-1/#comment-189 Gary Fleming Sat, 03 Dec 2005 15:09:27 +0000 http://davidarussell.eu/?p=295#comment-189 While it's probably not wise to go into this much more given that you've missed the point Colin is making, it's important to note that floating point performance, while important, is not the be and end all of console performance while running game code (leaving aside the fact that both quoted figures are skewed since MS and Sony decided to include GPU speed in that as well as CPU).<br /> <br /> For gaming there are two equally important measures, if not more so: 1) system bandwidth, and 2) shader throughput.<br /> <br /> On both of those measures, the 360 soundly whoops the PS3 (by a factor of 6 and 3 respectively).<br /> <br /> Taking everytng together and thinking specifically about games, there's really nothing in it.<br /> <br /> Further reading: Edge, issue 152. While it’s probably not wise to go into this much more given that you’ve missed the point Colin is making, it’s important to note that floating point performance, while important, is not the be and end all of console performance while running game code (leaving aside the fact that both quoted figures are skewed since MS and Sony decided to include GPU speed in that as well as CPU).

For gaming there are two equally important measures, if not more so: 1) system bandwidth, and 2) shader throughput.

On both of those measures, the 360 soundly whoops the PS3 (by a factor of 6 and 3 respectively).

Taking everytng together and thinking specifically about games, there’s really nothing in it.

Further reading: Edge, issue 152.

]]> By: Colin Riley http://www.davidarussell.co.uk/2005/12/01/good-luck-the-rest-of-us-dont-need-it/comment-page-1/#comment-183 Colin Riley Sat, 03 Dec 2005 14:38:20 +0000 http://davidarussell.eu/?p=295#comment-183 Sigh. You don't understand my argument, and I cant really be arsed explaining it all again :) Sigh. You don’t understand my argument, and I cant really be arsed explaining it all again :)

]]> By: David Russell http://www.davidarussell.co.uk/2005/12/01/good-luck-the-rest-of-us-dont-need-it/comment-page-1/#comment-181 David Russell Sat, 03 Dec 2005 12:35:19 +0000 http://davidarussell.eu/?p=295#comment-181 Yeah but that's the case for most new consoles - just compare the graphics of Gran Turismo 4 with those of some of the PS2's launch games. Also, the fact that the Cell is so much more powerful means that to get an equivalent performance to the X360's PowerPC you wouldn't have to use all of them (although using 8 cores instead of 16 is probably small consolation to developers) - and when developers finally do learn to code properly for both consoles, the PS3 will be much better than the X360. Yeah but that’s the case for most new consoles - just compare the graphics of Gran Turismo 4 with those of some of the PS2’s launch games. Also, the fact that the Cell is so much more powerful means that to get an equivalent performance to the X360’s PowerPC you wouldn’t have to use all of them (although using 8 cores instead of 16 is probably small consolation to developers) - and when developers finally do learn to code properly for both consoles, the PS3 will be much better than the X360.

]]> By: Colin Riley http://www.davidarussell.co.uk/2005/12/01/good-luck-the-rest-of-us-dont-need-it/comment-page-1/#comment-186 Colin Riley Sat, 03 Dec 2005 11:49:15 +0000 http://davidarussell.eu/?p=295#comment-186 Indeed. The issue I'm getting at, is that while just utilising 1 core of the x360 (2 threads) you can still get a huge amount of performace. But for the cell to get it's performance means you need to utilise pretty much all of them, and game developers are really going to have to change attitudes. Most of the current crop of launch date x360 games are only using 1 core for the game, and another for resource loading - it still has huge potential for the future. Indeed. The issue I’m getting at, is that while just utilising 1 core of the x360 (2 threads) you can still get a huge amount of performace. But for the cell to get it’s performance means you need to utilise pretty much all of them, and game developers are really going to have to change attitudes. Most of the current crop of launch date x360 games are only using 1 core for the game, and another for resource loading - it still has huge potential for the future.

]]> By: David Russell http://www.davidarussell.co.uk/2005/12/01/good-luck-the-rest-of-us-dont-need-it/comment-page-1/#comment-182 David Russell Sat, 03 Dec 2005 11:41:24 +0000 http://davidarussell.eu/?p=295#comment-182 Since the Xbox 360 is also multicore (don't know about the revolution, but the 'remote control' makes it irrelevant) developers will have to learn multi-threading to make best use of either of the next generation consoles. Since the Xbox 360 is also multicore (don’t know about the revolution, but the ‘remote control’ makes it irrelevant) developers will have to learn multi-threading to make best use of either of the next generation consoles.

]]> By: Colin Riley http://www.davidarussell.co.uk/2005/12/01/good-luck-the-rest-of-us-dont-need-it/comment-page-1/#comment-185 Colin Riley Sat, 03 Dec 2005 01:50:25 +0000 http://davidarussell.eu/?p=295#comment-185 Actually, you said "but the PS3 will be more than twice as powerful as the X360". A system is more than just a processor, a hell of a lot more. The PS3's downfall is going to be the cell architecture, together the cells are powerful, but on thier own they are terrible little shites - hence my saying that the PS3 performance will be terrible, unless game developers change to an extremely multithreaded design. It just so happens current game dev is not as multithreaded as one may think, usually there are only a few - resource control, renderer, gamecode, if you are very lucky you may squeeze out one more. How many cells are in the PS3? 7-8? half the 'peak' performance gone some may say. This is why the xbox360 wins in my book, each ppc core can actually perform well on their own, the only flaw in the 360 architecture I can see is that there is only 1mb l2 cache shared between a max of 6 hardware threads. Compared to the ps3 thats just the top of the iceberg. Actually, you said “but the PS3 will be more than twice as powerful as the X360″. A system is more than just a processor, a hell of a lot more. The PS3’s downfall is going to be the cell architecture, together the cells are powerful, but on thier own they are terrible little shites - hence my saying that the PS3 performance will be terrible, unless game developers change to an extremely multithreaded design. It just so happens current game dev is not as multithreaded as one may think, usually there are only a few - resource control, renderer, gamecode, if you are very lucky you may squeeze out one more. How many cells are in the PS3? 7-8? half the ‘peak’ performance gone some may say. This is why the xbox360 wins in my book, each ppc core can actually perform well on their own, the only flaw in the 360 architecture I can see is that there is only 1mb l2 cache shared between a max of 6 hardware threads. Compared to the ps3 thats just the top of the iceberg.

]]> By: David Russell http://www.davidarussell.co.uk/2005/12/01/good-luck-the-rest-of-us-dont-need-it/comment-page-1/#comment-187 David Russell Fri, 02 Dec 2005 22:37:45 +0000 http://davidarussell.eu/?p=295#comment-187 Er.. yes it is. Xbox 360 processor: 1.08 teraflops. PS3 processor: 2.something teraflops. In other words the PS3 processor is twice as powerful, which is what I said. FLOPS is one of the few objective ways of measuring a system's performance (as opposed to clock speed, which from the Pentium v Athlon debate means jack shit, or how shiny the graphics look) Er.. yes it is. Xbox 360 processor: 1.08 teraflops. PS3 processor: 2.something teraflops. In other words the PS3 processor is twice as powerful, which is what I said. FLOPS is one of the few objective ways of measuring a system’s performance (as opposed to clock speed, which from the Pentium v Athlon debate means jack shit, or how shiny the graphics look)

]]> By: Colin Riley http://www.davidarussell.co.uk/2005/12/01/good-luck-the-rest-of-us-dont-need-it/comment-page-1/#comment-184 Colin Riley Fri, 02 Dec 2005 21:29:05 +0000 http://davidarussell.eu/?p=295#comment-184 I must agree with gary, my project at the moment involves a deep look at system architectures and I have studied both the x360 and ps3. The 360 is a more straightforward architecture, and without extreme changes in the way game studios code up thier games the ps3 would perform at a rate much less than anything currently claimed, and certainly does not dwarf the 360 in anything. I must agree with gary, my project at the moment involves a deep look at system architectures and I have studied both the x360 and ps3. The 360 is a more straightforward architecture, and without extreme changes in the way game studios code up thier games the ps3 would perform at a rate much less than anything currently claimed, and certainly does not dwarf the 360 in anything.

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